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	<title>Comments on: RS485 Cables &#8211; Why you need 3 wires for 2 (two) wire RS485</title>
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		<title>By: b.eckley</title>
		<link>http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485/comment-page-1#comment-1910</link>
		<dc:creator>b.eckley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Oct 2011 15:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485#comment-1910</guid>
		<description>Gentlemen, there is alot of confusion here on RS485 and adding ground references into the mix only confuses the issue.  RS485 is a bidirectional, half-duplex, communication bus structure consisting of a single Master and at least one Slave.  The maximum number of slaves can vary widely from system to system however; most manufacturers cap the max number of slaves between 16 and 32.  Most RS485 signals operate ideally on a DC bias of 5 volts.  The signals are driven alternately from each other.  That is, each line operates inversely from the other and each is also referenced to the other from an electrical standpoint.  The receiver looks at the difference, not the absolute voltage value, of the two signals.  This is referred to as the “Line Bias” and it is critical in RS-485 applications. A bias difference of higher than 0.3v is generally accepted as valid but can be as high as 0.7v, depending on the system.  Absolute values below this are considered “undefined” or “gray” and may result in either a high or low reading by the receiver.  In many non-isolated applications, a “ground” or “shield” connection is provided in addition to the 2 data lines however, this is not necessary as the signals are referenced to each other and not to absolute ground.  It is only provided as a ground point for the communication cable shielding.  It is important to note that the shield ground should only be connected at a single trunk end in non-isolated applications.  If grounds are tied together in non-isolated systems, even a slight voltage difference, between the absolute ground points, will create a “ground loop” condition which can cause serious damage to the equipment.  Note that in isolated equipment, the above does not apply as there is no direct connection between the ground points however, in all applications, proper cable shield grounding should be practiced to eliminate and/or reduce electrical interference.

All devices, including wire, have a resistance to electricity.  Although resistance changes slightly with temperature and age, it remains the same at all times, no matter what electricity is doing.  As stated earlier, RS485 communication utilizes fluctuating signaling across a pair of conductors which creates an RF frequency.  The baud rate determines the RF frequency at which the signals operate and the lower the frequency, the higher the impedance.  Impedance is a measure of the overall opposition to current flow and only exists where there is AC, or fluctuating DC signals. In other words, Impedance is the measure of how much the circuit impedes the flow of alternating current. It is like “ohmite” resistance, but it also takes into account an additional property called Reactance.  Reactance is the opposition to alternating current due to either inductance (inductive reactance) or capacitance (capacitive reactance).

Inductive and Capacitive reactance are exactly opposite in their effects in AC circuity and will cancel each other respectively.  Inductive Reactance is the electrical resistance caused by the build-up of electric or magnetic fields and increases as the frequency gets HIGHER. Capacitance Reactance is the electrical resistance to a signal’s ability to charge or discharge to a voltage state and increases as the frequency gets LOWER.  Thus, if a circuit contains 150 ohms of inductive reactance and 125 ohms of capacitive reactance in series, the net reactance, is 150 – 125, or 25 ohms of inductive reactance.

The key truth of all communication lines is that the source impedance must ideally be equal to the load impedance in order to achieve maximum power (signaling) transfer and minimum signal reflection at the destination.  Serial communication operates most efficientially when the source and load impedance are matched to 120 ohms.  Unfortunately, when higher baud rates and/or longer transmission lines are implemented, the effective load impedance tends to change causing a mismatch.  Keep in mind that the ideal impedance of 120 ohms only describes the intrinsic impedance of the transmission line and it is not a function of the line length.  As a result, the transmitted signal will not be completely absorbed by the load and a portion is reflected back into the transmission line, causing a condition called “cross-talk”.  As the source and load impedance become more equal these reflections are eliminated.

There are several different ways to counter cross-talk, however, the most practical solution is to create an additional load to absorb the excessive reflections. This can be done by simply placing a “termination resistor” in parallel, with the communication medium.  In RS485, a termination resistor may be added across the receiver’s “+” and “-” lines in order to bring the load impedance back into compliance.  Keep in mind that resistor termination can potentially add heavy DC loading to a system and overload the source.  Therefore it is best to confer with the hardware manufacturer before adding any line termination.  That being said, a terminating resistor of less than 90 ohms should not be used and termination resistors should only be placed at the trunk ends of the transmission line. No more than two terminations should be placed in any system that does not use repeaters.

Many manufacturers suggest utilizing a termination resistor valued between 100 and 150 ohms; however, they fail to mention that if proper communication cabling is utilized and the baud rate is not excessively high, a load termination resistor may not be needed at all in shorter cable runs.  Remember, if improper communication cabling is utilized, all rules are thrown out and it is only a “hit-n-miss” if the application works at all. Belden 9841 or 9842 is EIA-485 cabling is made specifically for paired, half-duplex, multi-point RS485 serial communication applications</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gentlemen, there is alot of confusion here on RS485 and adding ground references into the mix only confuses the issue.  RS485 is a bidirectional, half-duplex, communication bus structure consisting of a single Master and at least one Slave.  The maximum number of slaves can vary widely from system to system however; most manufacturers cap the max number of slaves between 16 and 32.  Most RS485 signals operate ideally on a DC bias of 5 volts.  The signals are driven alternately from each other.  That is, each line operates inversely from the other and each is also referenced to the other from an electrical standpoint.  The receiver looks at the difference, not the absolute voltage value, of the two signals.  This is referred to as the “Line Bias” and it is critical in RS-485 applications. A bias difference of higher than 0.3v is generally accepted as valid but can be as high as 0.7v, depending on the system.  Absolute values below this are considered “undefined” or “gray” and may result in either a high or low reading by the receiver.  In many non-isolated applications, a “ground” or “shield” connection is provided in addition to the 2 data lines however, this is not necessary as the signals are referenced to each other and not to absolute ground.  It is only provided as a ground point for the communication cable shielding.  It is important to note that the shield ground should only be connected at a single trunk end in non-isolated applications.  If grounds are tied together in non-isolated systems, even a slight voltage difference, between the absolute ground points, will create a “ground loop” condition which can cause serious damage to the equipment.  Note that in isolated equipment, the above does not apply as there is no direct connection between the ground points however, in all applications, proper cable shield grounding should be practiced to eliminate and/or reduce electrical interference.</p>
<p>All devices, including wire, have a resistance to electricity.  Although resistance changes slightly with temperature and age, it remains the same at all times, no matter what electricity is doing.  As stated earlier, RS485 communication utilizes fluctuating signaling across a pair of conductors which creates an RF frequency.  The baud rate determines the RF frequency at which the signals operate and the lower the frequency, the higher the impedance.  Impedance is a measure of the overall opposition to current flow and only exists where there is AC, or fluctuating DC signals. In other words, Impedance is the measure of how much the circuit impedes the flow of alternating current. It is like “ohmite” resistance, but it also takes into account an additional property called Reactance.  Reactance is the opposition to alternating current due to either inductance (inductive reactance) or capacitance (capacitive reactance).</p>
<p>Inductive and Capacitive reactance are exactly opposite in their effects in AC circuity and will cancel each other respectively.  Inductive Reactance is the electrical resistance caused by the build-up of electric or magnetic fields and increases as the frequency gets HIGHER. Capacitance Reactance is the electrical resistance to a signal’s ability to charge or discharge to a voltage state and increases as the frequency gets LOWER.  Thus, if a circuit contains 150 ohms of inductive reactance and 125 ohms of capacitive reactance in series, the net reactance, is 150 – 125, or 25 ohms of inductive reactance.</p>
<p>The key truth of all communication lines is that the source impedance must ideally be equal to the load impedance in order to achieve maximum power (signaling) transfer and minimum signal reflection at the destination.  Serial communication operates most efficientially when the source and load impedance are matched to 120 ohms.  Unfortunately, when higher baud rates and/or longer transmission lines are implemented, the effective load impedance tends to change causing a mismatch.  Keep in mind that the ideal impedance of 120 ohms only describes the intrinsic impedance of the transmission line and it is not a function of the line length.  As a result, the transmitted signal will not be completely absorbed by the load and a portion is reflected back into the transmission line, causing a condition called “cross-talk”.  As the source and load impedance become more equal these reflections are eliminated.</p>
<p>There are several different ways to counter cross-talk, however, the most practical solution is to create an additional load to absorb the excessive reflections. This can be done by simply placing a “termination resistor” in parallel, with the communication medium.  In RS485, a termination resistor may be added across the receiver’s “+” and “-” lines in order to bring the load impedance back into compliance.  Keep in mind that resistor termination can potentially add heavy DC loading to a system and overload the source.  Therefore it is best to confer with the hardware manufacturer before adding any line termination.  That being said, a terminating resistor of less than 90 ohms should not be used and termination resistors should only be placed at the trunk ends of the transmission line. No more than two terminations should be placed in any system that does not use repeaters.</p>
<p>Many manufacturers suggest utilizing a termination resistor valued between 100 and 150 ohms; however, they fail to mention that if proper communication cabling is utilized and the baud rate is not excessively high, a load termination resistor may not be needed at all in shorter cable runs.  Remember, if improper communication cabling is utilized, all rules are thrown out and it is only a “hit-n-miss” if the application works at all. Belden 9841 or 9842 is EIA-485 cabling is made specifically for paired, half-duplex, multi-point RS485 serial communication applications</p>
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		<title>By: dinesh</title>
		<link>http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485/comment-page-1#comment-1854</link>
		<dc:creator>dinesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 May 2011 04:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485#comment-1854</guid>
		<description>We are service provider for metone Air born particle counters.
i have one problem at site.
the counters are connected through rs485 communication cable belden 9841.
it is observed that counter shows counts even if there is no particle present at that time &amp; this is for only 1min duration which is sampling cycle of counter.
i have doubt that this may be due to spike in communication cable.
is there any way to moniter the spike OR remove the spike from comunication cable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are service provider for metone Air born particle counters.<br />
i have one problem at site.<br />
the counters are connected through rs485 communication cable belden 9841.<br />
it is observed that counter shows counts even if there is no particle present at that time &amp; this is for only 1min duration which is sampling cycle of counter.<br />
i have doubt that this may be due to spike in communication cable.<br />
is there any way to moniter the spike OR remove the spike from comunication cable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Alper Kukul</title>
		<link>http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485/comment-page-1#comment-1828</link>
		<dc:creator>Alper Kukul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jan 2011 10:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485#comment-1828</guid>
		<description>Hi everyone !

In our power plant we are having problems to establish Modbus RS485 connection between Microscada and Beckwith M-3425 generator protection relay.We use CAT5 cable and in beckwith module i have inserted 200ohm termination resistor.Does anyone done this job before?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi everyone !</p>
<p>In our power plant we are having problems to establish Modbus RS485 connection between Microscada and Beckwith M-3425 generator protection relay.We use CAT5 cable and in beckwith module i have inserted 200ohm termination resistor.Does anyone done this job before?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: harry</title>
		<link>http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485/comment-page-1#comment-1827</link>
		<dc:creator>harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jan 2011 16:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485#comment-1827</guid>
		<description>can i shied both ends of control wire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>can i shied both ends of control wire.</p>
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		<title>By: Sri.V</title>
		<link>http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485/comment-page-1#comment-1807</link>
		<dc:creator>Sri.V</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Nov 2010 08:14:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485#comment-1807</guid>
		<description>We are using rs 485 network for our Energy meter commnunication.we are facing the some problem this network having totally 24 Nos enegy meters.

All are Rs 485 2 wire,Modbus,9600,shiled twised pair cable out of 24 Energy meter the following meter are not communicating Meter ID 11,14,20&amp;23.

We are using Terminating resistor also (120ohm 0.25W) for both ends.We are using Rs 485 to Rs 232 Converter.

I am check individually for Energy meter ID 11,14,20 &amp; 23 separately cable that only one meter that time these meter are working.

Please help me.

Thanks
Sri.V</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are using rs 485 network for our Energy meter commnunication.we are facing the some problem this network having totally 24 Nos enegy meters.</p>
<p>All are Rs 485 2 wire,Modbus,9600,shiled twised pair cable out of 24 Energy meter the following meter are not communicating Meter ID 11,14,20&amp;23.</p>
<p>We are using Terminating resistor also (120ohm 0.25W) for both ends.We are using Rs 485 to Rs 232 Converter.</p>
<p>I am check individually for Energy meter ID 11,14,20 &amp; 23 separately cable that only one meter that time these meter are working.</p>
<p>Please help me.</p>
<p>Thanks<br />
Sri.V</p>
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		<title>By: RS-485 Tips For The EtherMeter And Other Modbus Devices &#171; SCADAmetrics</title>
		<link>http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485/comment-page-1#comment-1790</link>
		<dc:creator>RS-485 Tips For The EtherMeter And Other Modbus Devices &#171; SCADAmetrics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Oct 2010 21:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485#comment-1790</guid>
		<description>[...] Chipkin Automation Systems &#8211; RS485 Cables – Why you need 3 wires for 2 (two) wire RS485 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Chipkin Automation Systems &#8211; RS485 Cables – Why you need 3 wires for 2 (two) wire RS485 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea Frigo</title>
		<link>http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485/comment-page-1#comment-1781</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea Frigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Oct 2010 21:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485#comment-1781</guid>
		<description>Hello tadas. I see two problems in what you propose:

this kind of bus with voltage dividers is fine for just a point to point RS485 connection because there must be just two terminators in the bus, but what you propose should be done in every node.

The transformer idea can&#039;t work because RS485 isn&#039;t a zero average voltage standard: no one warrants that the total duration of zeros is equal to the total duration of ones, leading to a DC voltage component, which in turn saturates any transformer. Even if the transformer is not saturated because of the line impedance limiting the current which can flow through it, in case several zeroes or ones form a packet, they would be lost because the transformer works on voltage variations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello tadas. I see two problems in what you propose:</p>
<p>this kind of bus with voltage dividers is fine for just a point to point RS485 connection because there must be just two terminators in the bus, but what you propose should be done in every node.</p>
<p>The transformer idea can&#8217;t work because RS485 isn&#8217;t a zero average voltage standard: no one warrants that the total duration of zeros is equal to the total duration of ones, leading to a DC voltage component, which in turn saturates any transformer. Even if the transformer is not saturated because of the line impedance limiting the current which can flow through it, in case several zeroes or ones form a packet, they would be lost because the transformer works on voltage variations.</p>
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		<title>By: Can I use a T connection to connect a BACnet MSTP device? &#124; Chipkin Automation Systems - Articles</title>
		<link>http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485/comment-page-1#comment-1766</link>
		<dc:creator>Can I use a T connection to connect a BACnet MSTP device? &#124; Chipkin Automation Systems - Articles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Sep 2010 17:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485#comment-1766</guid>
		<description>[...] No you can not use a T connection, MSTP requires both the positive and negative wires. Note: MS/TP actually requires 3 wires.  #call_to_action {padding: 0px 5px; margin: 10px 0px 10px 20px; background-color: #E0E3EF; border: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] No you can not use a T connection, MSTP requires both the positive and negative wires. Note: MS/TP actually requires 3 wires.  #call_to_action {padding: 0px 5px; margin: 10px 0px 10px 20px; background-color: #E0E3EF; border: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: tadas</title>
		<link>http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485/comment-page-1#comment-1764</link>
		<dc:creator>tadas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485#comment-1764</guid>
		<description>Acrually it is possible to avoid using 3-rd wire.

first, both wire must be protected against transients with diode clamps in both directions, VCC and ground.  And then they should be forced to remain in the required point (half of VCC)  with resitor voltage dividers. These will also work as terminators to avoid reflections.

unless noise is extremely high it should work fine.

if full isolation is required 1:1 transformer can be used for that purpose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acrually it is possible to avoid using 3-rd wire.</p>
<p>first, both wire must be protected against transients with diode clamps in both directions, VCC and ground.  And then they should be forced to remain in the required point (half of VCC)  with resitor voltage dividers. These will also work as terminators to avoid reflections.</p>
<p>unless noise is extremely high it should work fine.</p>
<p>if full isolation is required 1:1 transformer can be used for that purpose.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrea Frigo</title>
		<link>http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485/comment-page-1#comment-1758</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrea Frigo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chipkin.com/articles/rs485-cables-why-you-need-3-wires-for-2-two-wire-rs485#comment-1758</guid>
		<description>Test results: also dV/dt disturb effects can be eliminated by connectig the shield to the floating GND of the slave device and using it to carry the master GND. In this caase also bus polarization alone solves the problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Test results: also dV/dt disturb effects can be eliminated by connectig the shield to the floating GND of the slave device and using it to carry the master GND. In this caase also bus polarization alone solves the problem.</p>
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